“Immodesty is present only when nakedness plays a negative role with regard to the value of the person, when its aim is to arouse concupiscence, as a result of which the person is put in the position of an object for enjoyment… There are certain objective situations in which even total nudity of the body is not immodest, since the proper function of nakedness in this context is not to provoke a reaction to the person as an object for enjoyment, and in just the same way the functions of particular forms of attire may vary. Thus, the body may be partially bared for physical labor, for bathing, or for a medical examination. If then, we wish to pass a moral judgment on particular forms of dress we have to start from the particular functions which they serve. When a person uses such a form of dress in accordance with its objective function we cannot claim to see anything immodest in it, even if it involves partial nudity. Whereas the use of such a costume outside its proper context is immodest, and is inevitably felt to be so. For example, there is nothing immodest about the use of a bathing costume at a bathing place, but to wear it in the street or while out for a walk is contrary to the dictates of modesty.”
- Cardinal Ratzinger
Please read this: http://madeinhisimage.org/the-bikini-question/
I don't recall ever writing about this before. It's a tough topic, with a lot of tough questions and a lot of tough answers. There's a huge movement out there promoting modesty, and it comes in from many different directions. Many of the angles seem legit, and a lot of the statements people make seem true, and a lot of the presenters seem credible. But if you examine each "modest" person closely, you'll find that their definition of what is modest and why is slightly different. Why is this?? And what do we do about modesty?
Firstly, I think that a lot of what is said about modesty is wrong. I can't deny the facts and figures, of course, but I can deny the interpretation; and sometimes, I just might.
What is so commonly said:
- Guys need help controlling their imagination
- Modesy is a sacrifice that girls make to help their guy friends
- Girls need to dress in such a way that gives themselves self-respect for their bodies
- To be modest, cover the three Bs: bust, butt, and belly
First, I'm a girl; and all I know is – I need help controlling my imagination. It's not something I like to talk about, it's not something I like to think about – seriously; guys are not the only ones who have those issues. I resent the image of guys as uncontrollable animals, because that would make me one as well. But, although it's tough sometimes, I can control my imagination, and anything that comes into my head unbidden is mainly because of what I've fed it and where I've allowed it to go before. I'd like men to be dressed appropriately and to act appropriately to minimize the risk, but... my imagination is my own fault. I'm not an animal; I'm a rational being with the ability to direct my mind. And anyway, what's appropriate?
See, that's where we find ourselves when we talk about modesty. "What is appropriate?" But modesty is appropriateness. It is dressing for the occasion. On the beach, you would wear a swimsuit; not a ball gown. If you tried to cover every inch of skin while you were on the beach, you would attract attention. People would start staring, trying to figure out what the heck was going on. They'd be looking at your body, objectifying your body. Look, it doesn't even have to be for sexual reasons. And of course, on the dance floor, you would wear something formal; not a swimsuit. A swimsuit is appropriate at the beach; a ball gown is appropriate for a fancy dress ball.
"Yes, but how much skin do I have to cover?"
Look, it's not about "how much." That's the wrong way to go about it. See, one of the main goals of modesty is that what you wear doesn't distract from who you are. If you walk up to someone and their first thought (man or woman) is, "Whoa, that's a lot of make-up; whoa, she's busty; whoa, look at her hips." (It's easier for me to write this about a girl because I'm more familiar with the complaints against women; I'll try to address some issues with men later.) It's fine for someone to think, "Wow, she's got beautiful eyes," but unless someone has been training themselves to think that way, it probably won't be the first thing on their mind when they meet you.
Realize that everyone makes first impressions long before anyone's said anything. When you meet someone, you see their appearance and you make a mental connection in your mind. If they're sloppy, if they're stylish, if they're preppy, if they're too lightly or too heavily clad – you notice, and it tells you something about them, correctly or no. So if, ladies, we dress in such a way that draws a lot of attention to our bust or hips, that factors into the "pre-first impression." Have you ever looked at a picture of someone and looked straight at the person's chest, legs, or hair instead of their face? Or even something in the background? Why did you look at those areas instead of their face? Probably because what you looked at was the most prominent object in the photo – it stood out. It caught your attention. So if, ladies, you've got tons of cleavage, people will be thinking about your cleavage, not you, when you meet them. In the same way, if you're obviously trying to be "modest," that'll be distracting while you're trying to have a conversation.
I would very much like to propose here that bikinis are not inherently immodest. Every bikini I've ever tried on has only left me uncomfortable so I've never bought one. And my build makes other options more aesthetically pleasing on my frame. But lots of girls wear bikinis – seemingly without any issues. Even some girls who are big on modesty wear bikinis. It doesn't seem to me that bikinis inevitably create lustful thoughts in the minds of our guys friends. For one:
And besides that, remember what I said about my imagination? If my guys friends were to get out of the water and come sit beside me – let's say we're talking and we're teasing and we're nudging each other playfully and inspecting a cut that someone got from something in the sand – if they didn't put shirts on at some point, my imagination would be tickled a little bit. But I am by no means expected to start lusting after any of them. I control myself. And at the same time, it would be considerate and appropriate for them to put shirts on now that we're just sitting around. It's expected; the situation naturally calls for it.
That's why "modesty" has changed over time. We've all heard the old joke about ankles. Well, obviously there's nothing inherently sexy about ankles. And no one makes a big deal out of it anymore. But at the time, given the circumstances and the fashions, showing ankles had suggestive connotations.
So putting this all together, I think bikinis and strapless bathing suits might in fact be perfectly appropriate – in the water. But perhaps not when walking on the sidewalk, not when lying in the sand next to a guy friend. I'm not going to give absolutes, because there aren't many in this. You have to assess the situation and make a decision based on manners and etiquette and appropriateness. You just have to take into account what the swimsuit does to your body and whether it draws attention away from what you're saying, what you're doing, and who you are.
Men, if people are being confronted by your muscles, or your tattoos, or an awkward v-neck – they'll be thinking about that and not you. Don't wear grubby tanks unless it's super hot and it seems appropriate for the situation. And cover up your shorts please.
Do what you can to fit into the situation. There are those who will lust after random people no matter what they're wearing – and for them, there is very little you can do. There are those who will be tempted by fantasies when introduced to someone who is wearing something too low, too tight, or not wearing something at all. And there will be those who feel awkward in such situations but aren't really tempted unless behavior encourages it. (And that's another thing, behavior is part of modesty.) But wear what is appropriate. Appropriate for the situation. What's appropriate in the water is not what is appropriate out of the water is not what's appropriate in an interview is not what's appropriate when fixing a pipe.
If you're pulling out a few weeds in your business suit, that doesn't make you immodest, obviously. But a crucially important aspect of modesty is intention. What are you trying to do? If you're trying to draw attention to an area of your body, that's immodest. If you're trying to dress your body in the most attractive fashion, that's not. The point is to be more or less inconspicuous.
Read THIS to further understand this topic.
As are so many issues, modesty is not black and white. Shoulders are not definitely immodest and knees aren't definitely immodest, and necks are not definitely modest. (Yeah, that sounded weird.... The point is:) These rules will change with time, place, and audience. But if your swimsuit is asking, "Wanna see just a bit more? Wanna know what's just under this fold?" then you should probably wear something else – especially above water. But if your swimsuit is simply covering up and isn't begging to be taken off (or to fall off), then I venture to say that it's probably just fine?
Aim to be different, but don't aim to stand out – that's my rule. Modesty is a philosophy – a correct philosophy, when understood rightly – not a dress code.
~Meggy
P.S. Obviously modesty is a very complex subject. Like any philosophy, it can be examined from many different angles in many different ways with many different variables. I can't cover all of them. Please comment! But please don't nitpick. If you feel that I'm severely confused or that I've miswritten something or that I haven't been clear enough – I want to hear about it. If you're going to illustrate specific situations and enlighten us all exactly what is modest and what is not – that's exactly what I don't want to hear about. Nobody does. Let's go about this logically if we can. Tell me where I'm wrong, if I'm wrong, but don't tell me that shorts and bikinis are evil. I'm arguing principles, not facts. Take some time to think about this, too, because if it's new to you, you'll need some time to mull it over. Thanks, you guys! Come again!
(Edit: Please click HERE to read an article I wrote a few days later.)
(Coming up – Sherlock. Oh yes. Just yes. But I'll tell you about it later....)
Links in this post:
See, that's where we find ourselves when we talk about modesty. "What is appropriate?" But modesty is appropriateness. It is dressing for the occasion. On the beach, you would wear a swimsuit; not a ball gown. If you tried to cover every inch of skin while you were on the beach, you would attract attention. People would start staring, trying to figure out what the heck was going on. They'd be looking at your body, objectifying your body. Look, it doesn't even have to be for sexual reasons. And of course, on the dance floor, you would wear something formal; not a swimsuit. A swimsuit is appropriate at the beach; a ball gown is appropriate for a fancy dress ball.
"Yes, but how much skin do I have to cover?"
Look, it's not about "how much." That's the wrong way to go about it. See, one of the main goals of modesty is that what you wear doesn't distract from who you are. If you walk up to someone and their first thought (man or woman) is, "Whoa, that's a lot of make-up; whoa, she's busty; whoa, look at her hips." (It's easier for me to write this about a girl because I'm more familiar with the complaints against women; I'll try to address some issues with men later.) It's fine for someone to think, "Wow, she's got beautiful eyes," but unless someone has been training themselves to think that way, it probably won't be the first thing on their mind when they meet you.
Realize that everyone makes first impressions long before anyone's said anything. When you meet someone, you see their appearance and you make a mental connection in your mind. If they're sloppy, if they're stylish, if they're preppy, if they're too lightly or too heavily clad – you notice, and it tells you something about them, correctly or no. So if, ladies, we dress in such a way that draws a lot of attention to our bust or hips, that factors into the "pre-first impression." Have you ever looked at a picture of someone and looked straight at the person's chest, legs, or hair instead of their face? Or even something in the background? Why did you look at those areas instead of their face? Probably because what you looked at was the most prominent object in the photo – it stood out. It caught your attention. So if, ladies, you've got tons of cleavage, people will be thinking about your cleavage, not you, when you meet them. In the same way, if you're obviously trying to be "modest," that'll be distracting while you're trying to have a conversation.
I would very much like to propose here that bikinis are not inherently immodest. Every bikini I've ever tried on has only left me uncomfortable so I've never bought one. And my build makes other options more aesthetically pleasing on my frame. But lots of girls wear bikinis – seemingly without any issues. Even some girls who are big on modesty wear bikinis. It doesn't seem to me that bikinis inevitably create lustful thoughts in the minds of our guys friends. For one:
Sexual attraction, on the other hand, is not only a necessity for any creature which reproduces sexually, it is also a divine call to serve.
See, when a man is attracted to a woman (or vice versa), it is his divine obligation to turn that attraction outwards and to use it as an impulse which leads him to serve her better; to communicate to her as best he can her dignity and worth as a child of God. This original purpose and point of attraction is strikingly different than the purpose and point of lust, hence the Church discriminates lust while openly endorsing attraction.
. . .
Rather, the Church points back to its own understanding of the point of attraction, that is, a divine call to serve. Of course the men associated first person verbs with those women who they were more attracted to! When a man becomes attracted to a woman (and vice versa), his entire body signals him to love her, serve her, and communicate her dignity as a child of God back to her, all of which are calls to action on his part.
And besides that, remember what I said about my imagination? If my guys friends were to get out of the water and come sit beside me – let's say we're talking and we're teasing and we're nudging each other playfully and inspecting a cut that someone got from something in the sand – if they didn't put shirts on at some point, my imagination would be tickled a little bit. But I am by no means expected to start lusting after any of them. I control myself. And at the same time, it would be considerate and appropriate for them to put shirts on now that we're just sitting around. It's expected; the situation naturally calls for it.
That's why "modesty" has changed over time. We've all heard the old joke about ankles. Well, obviously there's nothing inherently sexy about ankles. And no one makes a big deal out of it anymore. But at the time, given the circumstances and the fashions, showing ankles had suggestive connotations.
So putting this all together, I think bikinis and strapless bathing suits might in fact be perfectly appropriate – in the water. But perhaps not when walking on the sidewalk, not when lying in the sand next to a guy friend. I'm not going to give absolutes, because there aren't many in this. You have to assess the situation and make a decision based on manners and etiquette and appropriateness. You just have to take into account what the swimsuit does to your body and whether it draws attention away from what you're saying, what you're doing, and who you are.
Men, if people are being confronted by your muscles, or your tattoos, or an awkward v-neck – they'll be thinking about that and not you. Don't wear grubby tanks unless it's super hot and it seems appropriate for the situation. And cover up your shorts please.
Do what you can to fit into the situation. There are those who will lust after random people no matter what they're wearing – and for them, there is very little you can do. There are those who will be tempted by fantasies when introduced to someone who is wearing something too low, too tight, or not wearing something at all. And there will be those who feel awkward in such situations but aren't really tempted unless behavior encourages it. (And that's another thing, behavior is part of modesty.) But wear what is appropriate. Appropriate for the situation. What's appropriate in the water is not what is appropriate out of the water is not what's appropriate in an interview is not what's appropriate when fixing a pipe.
If you're pulling out a few weeds in your business suit, that doesn't make you immodest, obviously. But a crucially important aspect of modesty is intention. What are you trying to do? If you're trying to draw attention to an area of your body, that's immodest. If you're trying to dress your body in the most attractive fashion, that's not. The point is to be more or less inconspicuous.
Read THIS to further understand this topic.
As are so many issues, modesty is not black and white. Shoulders are not definitely immodest and knees aren't definitely immodest, and necks are not definitely modest. (Yeah, that sounded weird.... The point is:) These rules will change with time, place, and audience. But if your swimsuit is asking, "Wanna see just a bit more? Wanna know what's just under this fold?" then you should probably wear something else – especially above water. But if your swimsuit is simply covering up and isn't begging to be taken off (or to fall off), then I venture to say that it's probably just fine?
Aim to be different, but don't aim to stand out – that's my rule. Modesty is a philosophy – a correct philosophy, when understood rightly – not a dress code.
~Meggy
P.S. Obviously modesty is a very complex subject. Like any philosophy, it can be examined from many different angles in many different ways with many different variables. I can't cover all of them. Please comment! But please don't nitpick. If you feel that I'm severely confused or that I've miswritten something or that I haven't been clear enough – I want to hear about it. If you're going to illustrate specific situations and enlighten us all exactly what is modest and what is not – that's exactly what I don't want to hear about. Nobody does. Let's go about this logically if we can. Tell me where I'm wrong, if I'm wrong, but don't tell me that shorts and bikinis are evil. I'm arguing principles, not facts. Take some time to think about this, too, because if it's new to you, you'll need some time to mull it over. Thanks, you guys! Come again!
(Edit: Please click HERE to read an article I wrote a few days later.)
(Coming up – Sherlock. Oh yes. Just yes. But I'll tell you about it later....)
Links in this post:
- http://theholyfool.blogspot.com/2013/06/the-bikini-question-rebuttal.html (Read this, read this, read this – it makes so much more sense than my sorry attempts)
- http://madeinhisimage.org/the-bikini-question/ (I don't entirely agree with this, obviously)
I'd like to point out that I'm not promoting stereotypes or uniformity or anything along those lines, from the best to the worst. By saying that we shouldn't stand out, I simply mean that we shouldn't be drawing unnecessary attention to our bodies. I don't phrase things very well, but I'm doing my best to say that clothes should not be a way to get attention.
ReplyDelete2 things. First, I agree with most of what you said and this post has definitely given me a new perspective on things. The reason I don't wear bikinis is, firstly, because I would look horribly fat in them and, secondly, because to me it seems the same as wearing a prettier version of my bra and undies at the beach. You get my point? It doesn't seem to be an appropriate from of dress for me outside of my house. Well, room, actually. I don't remember if you said this or if it is in one of the other posts you linked to but I think the point of feeling dignified in what you wear is really important. I don't wear low cut shirts because I feel uncomfortable in them and like I am showing something that is just nobodies business. Also, I don't want to 'help' the guys have lustful thoughts about me but help them to be able to respect my person more and be less distracted by my body. Does this make sense? I am really grateful for this post, btw, because it is really helping me shape my opinion more about this topic. And that leads me to my second point.
ReplyDeleteIs it ok for you if I quote you on my blogs? It would really help me to get my thoughts across! You
2 things. First, I agree with most of what you said and this post has definitely given me a new perspective on things. The reason I don't wear bikinis is, firstly, because I would look horribly fat in them and, secondly, because to me it seems the same as wearing a prettier version of my bra and undies at the beach. You get my point? It doesn't seem to be an appropriate from of dress for me outside of my house. Well, room, actually. I don't remember if you said this or if it is in one of the other posts you linked to but I think the point of feeling dignified in what you wear is really important. I don't wear low cut shirts because I feel uncomfortable in them and like I am showing something that is just nobodies business. Also, I don't want to 'help' the guys have lustful thoughts about me but help them to be able to respect my person more and be less distracted by my body. Does this make sense? I am really grateful for this post, btw, because it is really helping me shape my opinion more about this topic. And that leads me to my second point.
ReplyDeleteIs it ok for you if I quote you on my blogs? It would really help me to get my thoughts across! And what I said in this comment is not necessarily an opinion that I won't alter. Please tell me what you think so I get more different perspectives on my own thoughts. God bless you
Actually, I think that's what's really important when it comes to modesty. You need to be comfortable in your own skin – or rather, clothes. Which is why I linked to The Holy Fool, because I feel like he explained that better than I did. If you feel like you're wearing your underwear at the beach, then I'd agree you shouldn't wear a bikini. I'm not comfortable with it either. So I think it would be immodest for us to do so.
DeleteI'd also like to apologize a bit if I sound too definitive. I don't claim to fully understand modesty and I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong here and there. But I've heard a lot about modesty and I feel like this definition needs to be spread around more.
And most certainly quote me if it helps! It's nice, as a writer, to take some of the weight off our shoulders by quoting someone else and so add to our credibility and at the same time share the blame of the opinion with someone else. That's why I quoted The Holy Fool! haha
All the luck in the world as you try to understand this complicated issue!
You know, my difficulty when I'm talking about modesty, is the same problem I have when I try to talk politics. I'm way too simple minded. I've spent so much time in my head that I'm just like, "Look, obviously. So shut up and do it. Stop trying to lay judgment on every little step and just get it done." I don't understand why the whole thing has to be so complicated – because it's not to me. That's a severe disadvantage when trying to explain it to someone else. That's why when I write something like this, I'm desperate for people to ask me questions so I can be sure that they understand. So if it seems incomplete and off-the-cuff, I can take criticism.
ReplyDelete